Howard County Blog

A Blog on what is going on in Howard County

Tuesday, October 03, 2006

Bloggers Candidates Forum Open Thread

Here are the answers that candidates have sent us so far. What do you think of their answers?


Blogger FreeMarket said...

Did Ulman not participate?

8:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is sad that Ken Ulman a man of the people, a man who claims to represent the views of Howard County, and man who wants to be our next County Executive did not feel it important enough to answer bipartisan questions put forth by ordinary citizens of Howard County. Maybe if the questions came from a special interest group or union he would have felt more inclined to spend time answering them.

10:31 AM  
Blogger FreeMarket said...

It is interesting that Merdon and Wallis have very similar answers. I have not heard much about Wallis prior to this, but he seems like a good candidate. I like how Merdon totally ducked the question about his biggest political supporter, by saying that grassroots volunteers are the biggest. That is like saying “white men” or “other republicans” are his biggest political supporters. But at least he is interested enough in being County Executive to respond to this forum, which is more that I can say for Ulman.

1:13 PM  
Anonymous Nina Basu said...

The anonymous comment about Ken Ulman is totally unfair - remember, candidates are deluged with questionaires and forum requests. David Wissing posted that he expected a 50% answer rate. Often candidates answer surveys late, it's just a matter of reality on campaigns where the candidate and staff are working 24 hours a day and not sleeping.

Ken has a proven record of standing up for Howard County, and I plan to vote for him on that record.

Also, note many others haven't replied yet.

1:24 PM  
Blogger FreeMarket said...

Nina- Keep in mind that Ulman had two weeks to respond. Merdon and Wallis responded in a timely fashion. If Ulman cannot manage his time or his staff to get these kinds of things accomplished, then he is not a capable manager, and will not be an effective County Executive.

1:36 PM  
Anonymous nina basu said...

Freemarket - I do realize that candidates had two weeks - but in the scheme of things two weeks isn't that long in Campaign Time. Many surveys, etc, go out with months to spare - and some candidates flat out refuse to answer surveys within 5 weeks of the election since they simply don't have the time to do a good job on them.

I don't dismiss kudos to Mr. Wallis and Mr. Merdon for their responses. However, though their willingness to participate raises their profile in *my* mind, I'm not a one-issue voter. Ken simply has the best record on the issues I care about - and I trust him to keep greenspace, smart design, and services throughout the County.

This is the first year the bloggers have had a forum. I think it's really awesome and cutting edge, and allows for a level of discourse not possible elsewhere. I see this as the future of politics. However, it may take a cycle or two for everyone to catch on. In the meantime, I'm using responses to educate myself, but not in a vaccuum - I'm also voting on records.

11:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr. Ulman, in my opinion, gets no credit, having thus far not answered any of the questions. Yet, late work may be turned in for partial credit. Nonetheless, it's disappointing an open book quiz with a 2-week due date may be too much of a challenge.

I'm going to have to stock up on red pens. Having just read Mr. Merdon's responses, I have considerable differences of opinion with Mr. Merdon's responses, believe there are considerable shortcomings in some of his proposals and grasp of history, and perceive at least one non-answer response. My comments on Mr. Merdon's responses will follow tomorrow.

Accountability, gentlemen.

3:43 AM  
Anonymous David W. Keelan said...

No partial credit. The nice thing about this format is that people can comment and ask for clarification.

This is an "open book quiz" and responses have been posted unedited. They are not edited to fit a 300 or 700 word article.

9:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My opinion of Mr. Merdon's responses

Question 1
This was a multipart question, asking the respondent to:
- name a parcel of land in their district thought to be a poorly designed development
- explain what is wrong with it
- what changes they'd have required if on the Zoning Board at the time in order to approve the development.

Mr. Merdon did name a parcel of land. He also did name what was wrong with it. He did not mention what changes he would have required to approve it.

So, this answer gets 67% credit.

Question 2
Mr. Merdon did answer directly this question about what the rural land preservation is supposed to achieve.

His statements about doing whatever is necessary to fully fund doubling the funding per acre and about Doughoregan Manor and Belmont being priorities of his sound ok, but where's the substance to these assertions? Is there significant detail about plans for how he'll accomplish these priorities of his on his website?

More detail please. After all, he himself cites the necessity for plans of action in his response to Question #9.

I'll give this answer an 80%.

Question #3
Mr. Merdon also did directly answer the question posed, that being why he belongs to his political party.

However, asserting that President Reagan "won" the Cold War is, arguably, an overly simplified explanation of how the Cold War ended. An earlier factor that also contributed to this resolution was the '75 Helsinki Accords which begat the accelerated rise of dissident groups and democratic movements in Eastern bloc countries, such as Poland's Solidarity. Also, Pope John Paul II contributed significantly to advancing human rights in the East. With these advances, Gorbachev's Glasnost was more able to occur(accelerated all the more by the need for more openess after Chernobyl), and considerable progress occurred resolving the conflict. President Reagan's terms did put pressure on Russia's economy trying to keep up with our military buildup, but at significant cost to our standard of living. Under what was termed by George H.W. Bush as "voodoo economics", the rich got richer, the poor got poorer, and the national debt soared. Nonetheless, I am very, very, very glad and relieved for this and future generations that the Cold War is no more.

Points off to the bloggers for choosing this as a worthy question, however. Why a candidate chose a party is so trivial vs. candidates positions on issues that affect our daily lives. Where'd you dig this question up - Bob Schieffer's reject questions from 2004's soft-pitch Debate #3? Extra credit goes to Mr. Merdon for subtly making this point - political affiliation is less important than the candidates' positions on the issues.

Off topic, but since Mr. Merdon pluralized "big issues of the day", what other "big issues of the day" did he have right? Iran/Contra? Launching his '80 campaign in the small Mississippi town where three civil rights workers were killed? Initially opposing every major civil rights bill of the '60's? Taming inflation, but only by taking the economy into its most severe recession since the Great Depression, at one seeing unemployment hit 10.8%? Soaring national debt that led to changing the U.S. from the largest creditor nation to the largest debtor nation (where we still are today)?

Mr. Merdon gets 90% for this question (but please do some more reading about the Cold War).

Question #4
Bloggers, this is another all-too-predictable, less than soft-pitch question, asking if they support their party's gubernatorial candidate and why. A waste of a question that could have been used for something far more substantive.

Mr. Merdon directly answered the question, but his answer lacked substance. Yes, we know about Arbutus, MD. How about citing your supported gubernatorial candidate's issue positions, accomplishments, or actions in office with which you agree?

I'll give 75% credit for this answer to a T-ball pitch of a question.

Question #5
The simple questions asked were:
- "Explain how you got to know your biggest political contributor?"
- "How often do you communicate with your biggest political contributor?
The question includes a note saying "(Remember we can search your financial reports..."

Mr. Merdon, in my opinion, did not answer the questions asked. The question obviously meant financial contributors, not volunteers standing at roadside waving during rush hour. Shouldn't candidates be "candid", not evasive? Tsk.

Big red zero on this question.

Bloggers, however, you get extra credit for this nice fast-pitch question. Yet, next time phrase the questions "How did you get to know your campaign's biggest FINANCIAL contributor" and "how often do you communicate with your campgain's biggest FINANCIAL contributor" so we get the answers desired.

(Comments on remaining responses follow)

1:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Question #6
The questions:
a- "Do you support the County Council's decision to pass the comp-lite legislation?"
b- "Why or why not?"
c- "If you were a member of the county council that passed comp-lite legislation, please explain your vote."
d- "Do you support the comp-lite referendum?"
e- "Why or why not?"

Mr. Merdon directly and clearly answered only subquestion "a" (no). He directly, but in a fashion understandable only to those following the comp-lite petition and appeal process, answered subquestion "d", too. Subquestions "b", "c", and "e" went unanswered in my opinion.

This question's answers get 3/5 or 40%. A la carte answers get a la carte credit.

Question #7
The questions asked:
- "Do you support an end to the surcharge of $1.00 per square foot on new construction that has been created to fund school construction?"
- "Why or why not?"

Mr. Merdon answered both question directly and, in my opinion, sufficiently. The linked article, however, kind of jumped around, detracting from the concise brevity of the response.

I'll give this answer 100%.

Question #8
The questions:
- "Do you support cutting any residential taxes (property or income)?"
- "If so, which" and
- "how would you pay for it."
- "If not, why?"

Mr. Merdon answered the multiple parts completely. A good response that seems viable, too.

100% credit.

Question #9
The questions:
- "Do you believe that the county should build a new government complex?"
- "Why or Why not?"
- "How would you fund such a project?"

Mr. Merdon didn't directly answer the first part, instead only saying the need exists, but not specifically if a new complex should be built. Isn't data available relative to current and expected government office space costs and office capacities to allow a relatively good determination as to the need and ROI for such a complex?

Because the first part wasn't answered decisively, the second part was lightly addressed. Answering about funding, Mr. Merdon's explaining it would be expensive without even an estimate as to how much, but using expense as reason for public/private partnership just doesn't seem to make a sufficient argument. Confusing.

Relative to requiring the complex be a "green design", Mr. Merdon should get kudos. However, his plan only pursues LEED Silver certification. On a 4-tier scale of "green quality" (Certified, Silver, Gold, Platinum), why only require the certification second from the bottom instead of Platinum? His Green Plan needs much, much more specificity. An improvement I can suggest: reverse the 2004 Zoning text changes that allowed increased light pollution and improve upon them. Development and commercial lighting shouldn't rob our children of a clear view of the night sky. Try to see the Milky Way at night in HoCo. One can't. Beyond the Green reasons, Route 40, especially near Rogers Ave. needs considerable light pollution abatement, both for aesthetics and safety.

Comments about true, open campaigns and true, open government also earn bonus points. True transparency and true accountability are necessities.

This answer gets 80%.

Question #10
Direct question. Direct answer. 100%


2:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Question #11
Direct question. Direct answer.

Question #12
A question if the candidate has any proposals in mind to address low-income housing.

Mr. Merdon answered, in my opinion, directly with a no, but he'll consider recommendations from the Commission. Only a plan of reaction, supporting only those solutions that are compatible with existing neighborhoods.

I'll give 70% credit for this answer.

Question #13
Direct question about supporting public funding private schoolbus transporation. Direct answer (yes).

Is this subsidizing the affluent, complicating church/state separation, or slightly lessening the public school headcount thereby reducing public costs? A tricky topic.

Credit given: 100%

Question #14
A question if zoning regs should be used to restrict x-rated or alleged indecent businesses.

Mr. Merdon answered mostly directly, stating certain businesses not fitting neighborhoods shouldn't be allowed.

Credit given: 90%.

Question #15

Question #16
A question about requiring public right-of-way for political assembly, etc. on lands credited as open space.

Mr. Merdon requested more information, which seemed reasonable.

Credit given: 100%

Summary (again, only my opinion, hopefully more based on directness and substance than ideology)
1. 67
2. 80
3. 90
4. 75
5. 0
6. 40
7. 100
8. 100
9. 80
10. 100
11. 100
12. 70
13. 100
14. 90
15. N/A
16. 100 1192/1500=79.46%

3:07 AM  
Blogger Ken said...

While I regret that not all candidates at whatever level chose to repond to the questionnaire, it's not going to affect my vote as a resident of LD13 and Council district 3 in the least. It would have been nice to have gotten responses from Jim Robey and Guy Guzzone, but I've seen Guy's responses to another questionnaire and I'm sufficiently familiar with how my incumbent legislators have voted that the bloggers questionnaire is purely supplementary. It confirms my predisposition to vote against State Senator Schrader and for Delegates Pendergrass and Turner plus delegate candidate Guzzone. With regard to the State Senate race in LD13: I specifically disagree with Schrader's stated support for (1) public funding of non-public school textbooks and transportation and (2) slots and her opposition to (1) filling early legislative vacancies by election and (2) public funding of statewide and legislative campaigns. I'm familiar with the fact that she opposed a state emergency contraception program that I'd support, so her pointing out that minors can get access to such contaceptives via a prescription didn't tell me anything new about her views. She also failed to provide any answer to three questions: on a statewide smokimg ban, attribution of contributions to a controlling entity, and regulation of utilities. I'd like to know Jim Robey's stance on all of these matters, but assume he can't be as bad on all of them.
You can get a view of my ideology by reading Liz Bobo's responses. With her, I have no disagreement at all.
In Council district 3, I much prefer the responses of Jen Terrasa to those of Donna Thewes.
My problems with County Executive candidate Merdon are about the same as with Thewes. Neither, in my view, shows sufficient respect for the church-state separation principle with regard to publicly-funded busing to non-public schools or freedom of expression with regard to zoning regulations.

7:28 AM  
Blogger hocoblog said...

Ken, this is an important question. I would have liked to have discussed it with you when we put the questions together, but we had a lot of work to do. Here are my thoughts.

Separation of Church and State? That is a red herring in this case. As long as all schools are treated equally their is no chance of Government favoring one over the other.

Many families go to a great deal of trouble to be able to afford to pay taxes and send their kids to a school of their choice. I know many of them and admire the sacrifice they are willing to make. The give up a lot to enable their children to attend these schools.

Separation of Church and State can not be found in the US Constitution either. David Osmundson (9A) suggested that we give the kids worn and outdated books and equipment? How generous. What happened to his avocation for the brotherhood of humankind as “one nation under God.”?

The First Amendment to the Constitution states: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or of the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” That’s all folks…no mention of any separation. The Constitution does not support a separation of church and state. It does not support the state establishing a religion. It does not support the State meddling in religion. It says nothing about embracing religious principles, but our founders certainly embraced religious principles.

The father of the Constitution, James Madison, said “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the whole future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” Well he wrote the thing - he’d know.

So, I pay taxes. If I choose to send my kids to Catholic school should I still pay school taxes? Yes? Why? Same argument if you ask me.

Senator Allan Kittleman makes a good point. What if all the private schools closed down and all the kids went into the public school system? Do you think that would improve our public schools or over burden them? Would we pay more taxes or less? Let me go a couple of steps further. Do you think taking ten kids out of a failing school would hurt the school or help the school? Do you think it would hurt the kids or help the kids?

As far as school transportation is concerned. I think it is very reasonable to provide school busing. I think if these kids are fed into a central public school and then picked up as a group and driven to their school that is completely acceptable and actually generous on the parents part. I did it for five years.

9:24 AM  
Blogger Ken said...

HoCoBlog and I totally disagree on the matter of the constitutional separation of church and state and how that principle should affect our educational system. He seems to think the principle doesn't exist at all. Well, he's entitled to his opinion and I am to mine, but, ultimately, the Supreme Court interprets the meaning of the First Amendment and the rest of the constitution. In writing the majority opinion for that court in 1947 in Everson v. Board of Education, Justice Hugo Black said:
"The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence to go to or remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State."
I fully agree with these words of Justice Black. Others, like, apparently, the previous blogger, do not.
At any rate, mentioning that church-state separation principle in conection to laws that provide aid to religious schools (and most non-public schools are religious) is no red herring. It's a real issue.
It's not a matter of treating all schools (public or non-public equally. Aiding religious schools violates the First Amendment. Taxpayers are obligated only to fund the public schools that they/we fully control.
Anyone who chooses to do so can send their children to non-public schools (for the religious and/or non-religious reasons of their choice) instead of to the public schools that are open to all children and are funded by all taxpayers (including the childless). But those who choose that course of their own volition should be prepared to pay the full cost of so doing.
I am more than willing to pay my full share of whatever it costs to provide an excellent public education to all potential children. Nobody is going to scare me with this argument about how it'll cost us more if they all stay in our public schools while at the same time arguing that we should help subsidize the cost of their non-public (usually religious) school education or indoctrination. If I'm going to pay one way or the other, I'd gladly choose to pay for their religion-free or private propaganda-free education in our public schools.
I repeat: Those who send their children to some school other the public school that is open to them should expect to pay the full cost of doing so. Don't expect me or other taxpayers to help you out with your choice.
If some child has a physical or mental need that can only be met in some kind of non-public school, I do support funding that child. Otherwise, no way.
Suffice it to say that no candidates who favor public funding of non-public schools for any other reason will get any election support from me.

11:27 AM  
Blogger Ken said...

Correction of sentence in Justice Black quote:
Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion.

11:31 AM  
Blogger Tom Berkhouse said...

Ken, you are leaving out a critical point about "religion". To not believe in a certain faith is to be agnostic or atheistic - which are BOTH still "religions". Public schools could be argued to be indoctrinating our youth to be agnostic or atheistic - so maybe the government should NOT fund those schools either. Also, the reason why many people send their children to private schools is not primarily for religious purposes, it's simply to have their children in an environment where there is order and discipline, not drugs, gangs, shotting sprees, etc. It's not our fault that the Public School system all throughout this COuntry have become nothing more than a political arm of the liberal establishment instead of being NEUTRAL and focusing on educating our children.

You are obviously set in your philosophical ways, which is sad, because you are very misguided about many things, including Ken Ulman's credentials and record on the issues.

12:57 PM  
Blogger hocoblog said...

Ken, I support the intent of Everson v. Board of Education. No problem. I do think we go overboard. Also, the clause "seperation of church and state" still doesn't exist in the constitution.

I do not advocate the State to go out and set up religious schools or the Church of the United States.

There is room for more than a state sponsored school system. No one is using scare tactics here. But it is a good point to illustrate the value those schools provide to the community. It is not an arguement to advocate for funding because I don't believe they should receive funding.

The point is simply this public schools and private schools (I don't mean the ones for the super rich) have a place. Just because one is a state school doesn't mean that the kids in the private school should not have the support of their own tax dollars.

Who is being hurt here?

When it comes to public funding regarding, books, technology, and busing I believe it is a red herring. I don't think we are putting our toe on the line of seperation of church and state and the wall is going to come crashing down.

It is perfectly legal for an institution (religious or otherwise) to set up a charter school. So a precedent exists.

Their is a reason for seperation of church and state and busing private school children is not one of them - it is a red herring.

Jefferson and Madison would turn in their graves if it was suggested that busing a child to any school would in any manner what so ever constitute the establishment of a religion.

Now, you didn't answer my question. If I pay Howard County Taxes and don't send my kids to Howard County schools why can't I expect some help to get my kid to school or make sure they have adequate text books?

Do you support eliminating the State's oversight of non-public school's programs and/or registration requirements, as well as teacher certification?

2:21 PM  
Blogger Ken said...

To Tom Berkhouse:
Indeed, agnosticism or atheism do constitute a set of beliefs. But it's nonsense to claim that our public schools are indoctrinating children in those beliefs. If there are public school classes in philosophy or the history of religions (and sometimes that doesn't happen until college), children may be learning about a variety of religious or non-religious beliefs. But they are not being told in public school classes that one of these beliefs concerning religion is right and that one is wrong. Contrast that with what goes on in religious schools. Are not the children in those schools being taught that their religion is right (in other words, being indoctrinated in their religion)?
Beyond that, it doesn't matter if some people send their children to private schools for non-religious reasons. The rest of us should not be required to help them pay their self-assumed bills. I can remember the days when some of those people did that to resist desegregation.
If you think I'm misguided, you may be sure I think the same of you.

To hocoblogger:
You just don't get it, do you? No, the exact words "separation of church and state" do not appear in the US Constitution. The Constitution also says nothing about "jaywalking." But I showed you the language of the Supreme Court decision in which the First Amendment was interpreted by that body as including those words and what those words meant to a court majority at that time.
You're also inconsistent. About non-public schools, you first say you "don't believe they should receive funding." (I agree with that.) But then you totally reverse
yourself and argue that non-public schools children should get some benefit from the taxes their parents pay.
I'll gladly answer your specific questions:
We all pay taxes and we're all entitled to send our children (if we have any) to the public schools we all control through our elected school board. We also all entitled to make use of the publicly-funded police department. Anyone is free to hire their own private police protection if they choose, but the rest of us should not have to pay for it. Ditto with schools. If you want something that you think is better than what is provided by our public schools, you pay for it yourself. Don't come running to me or other taxpayers and expect us to join you in funding your choice (whether that means transporting your children to your chosen non-public school or providing them with textbooks). You made your choice. You pay for it.
And yes, if public funding of non-public schools is totally eliminated, I favor total elimination of any state "oversight of non-public school's programs and/or registration requirements, as well as teacher certification." However, some non-public school advocates want to "have their cake and eat it too" by getting public funding without the oversight that would be necessary to ensure that the money is being spent as intended.

4:06 PM  
Blogger hocoblog said...

I am trying to be nice. I am not trying to get into a tit for tat with you. I do get it. We just don't agree. And I am not trying to argue for arguements sake. That simple so relax.

I don't believe non-public schools should get the same level of funding as public schools. That does not mean I don't believe in some form of assistance (busing, text books, some equipment, and the like). I think it should be limited and I don't think their is anything unconstitutional about it. People want to go to a non-public school they pay the freight.

I think I am closer to the views of the court decisions than you might be.

Cochran v. Louisiana State Board of Education

The Court upheld the Louisiana statute that provided state funds for the purchasing of textbooks for both religious and public school students.

Did you know that in Everson v. Board of Education the court also said after detailing the history and importance of the Establishment Clause (which you quoted previously), Justice Black argued that services like bussing and police and fire protection for parochial schools are "separate and so indisputably marked off from the religious function" that for the state to provide them would not violate the First Amendment. The law did not pay money to parochial schools, nor did it support them directly in anyway. It was simply a law enacted as a "general program" to assist parents of all religions with getting their children to school.

Mitchell v. Helms Decision upheld as constitutional Title VI of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act that provided allows the use of federal funds to supply computer hardware and software and library and media materials to religiously affiliated schools. The 6-3 majority ruled that the aid was constitutional so long as is: (1) "allocated on the basis of secular, neutral criteria" (2) supplementary and does not supplant non-federal funds and (3) provided to the school through a public agency in the form of materials and services and not in actual dollars.

We could cite cases all day long, back and forth back and forth and it would not accomplish anything.

The point I am trying to make is that people are misusing the seperation clause.

If you want to read something that does a better job of expressing my point than I am able please read this.

9:41 PM  
Blogger hocoblog said...

BTW: That link is Justice Black's entire decision not just the exception clause you selectively quoted.

9:45 PM  
Blogger hocoblog said...

Ken, forgot to mention, though you quoted Justice Black, who you quote, supports my position on text books.

9:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So if public funding of non-public schools' transportation, computers, and textbooks is ok, where does the line get drawn? Land and construction costs for new non-public schools? Heating and cooling costs? School uniform costs? School administration costs?

It's a slippery slope, with each public dollar being spent to support non-public schools transportation, etc. essentially making another private dollar the non-public school has available for uses not allowed under the Constitution if it were a public dollar.

How can anyone say this isn't supporting religion?

Everyone should be free to practice religion if they choose, in many cases considerably benefitting themselves and the world, but it should be funded 100% through voluntary private means and 0% through involuntary public means.

11:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nina Basu said:

"Ken has a proven record of standing up for Howard County, and I plan to vote for him on that record."

Does Ken's proven record include an inflated resume and the undocumented campaign contributions from his father?

11:56 PM  
Blogger hocoblog said...


Ok you win. From now on.
No Fire Protection
No Police Protection
No Water or Sewer services
No street lights
No snow removal from the street in the front of the building
No trash removal from church rectories
So on and so forth

12:15 AM  
Blogger Ken said...

Quoting hocoblog:
"I don't believe non-public schools should get the same level of funding as public schools. That does not mean I don't believe in some form of assistance (busing, text books, some equipment, and the like). I think it should be limited and I don't think their is anything unconstitutional about it. People want to go to a non-public school they pay the freight.

I think I am closer to the views of the court decisions than you might be."

It's for damn sure we disagree. You can't even see your own inconsistencies. Users of non-public schools are NOT paying their own freight if they're getting forced public subsidies from other taypayers for their school's transportation, textbooks, computers, or whatever else.

It's also for damn sure that you're much closer to agreeing with the Supreme Court decisions in the cases you mention than I am. And you will most likely remain so for the rest of my life because some US Senators didn't have the guts to resist until the last breath the religious right extremist nominees of the present president and some of his predecessors. Those people will render the constitutution meaningless with their predetermined interpretations of its language. The rightwingers like to talk about the "bad" activist judges on their ideological left. It looks to me like there's at least as much judicial activism among the ideological right justices. Just as they have found ways to get money to the non-public schools that they like, I look for Roe v. Wade to be rendered meaningless by them pretty quickly.

I am very well aware of the conclusion drawn by the court majority in the Everson case. I was simply showing you (and others who may be reading this blog) where Justice Black considered that the phrase "separation of church and state" could be read into the establishment clause of the First Amendment. That he and the court majority then went to essentially ignore that definition in making their ruling on the case itself is a shame from my viewpoint, but irrelevant for the purpose of the point I was trying to make.

As for your comment to another blogger essentially saying that if religion can't be publicly funded, neither can we fund fire protection, police protection, water or sewer services, street lights, or snow removal, that just doesn't equate. A part of the First Amendment to the US Constitution was intended to prohibit public funding of religion, thus leaving it as a private matter for individual choice. There is nothing in the Constitution that prohibits public funding of fire protection, police protection, water or sewer services, street lights, or snow removal. Citizens have a collective right to decide how much funding they want to to put into each of these categories. Some people who seem to push tax cuts as the ultimate goal do not seem to recognize that there are some necessities in life that do require at least a minimal amount of public spending. I hope you do recognize that.

9:14 AM  
Blogger hocoblog said...

Of course I recognize that Ken. It was tongue in cheek.

They are subsidizing their own text books, transportation through their own tax dollars.

4:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Subsidizing their own transportation and textbooks through their own tax dollars?

I'd love to see the average miles a private school student travels vs. what a public school student travels. Any guesses what greater percentage of miles private school students travel? More miles = more gas, more service, more labor = more dollars. Those extra dollars come from everyone.

Also, it may be just my impression, but to me it seems private school buses don't travel as full as public school buses. This results in even higher costs, again being funded by everyone.

The examples I gave (land/construction, HVAC, uniforms, etc.) were of those services for which the private institution or its attendees do now pay and, if publicly subsidized, would allow the private institution to use the offset private funds for things not allowed to be funded publicly.

Your list of other services weren't that valid, either citing services that don't benefit the institution specifically or services for which the institution does fund it privately. Nevertheless, thanks for helping affirm my point.

Fire & Police - Both of these services are paid via the institutions' property taxes, so no public subsidy occurs.

Water/Sewer - The institutions pay a water/sewer bill like everyone else, so no public subsidy occurs. Or they have onsite well/septic facilities for which they pay 100% which means no public subsidy.

Street lights - They're illuminating public rights-of-way, not private roads on the institutions' premises, so it's not a subsidy.

Snow removal from the street in the front - Again, it's serving the public road. Any onsite street lighting/snow removal is paid for by the institution, thus no public subsidy.

Trash removal from church rectories - I assume either the $125 per residence trash fee is covering their residential trash collection or they're using a private service paid for privately, neither of which requires a public subsidy.

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7:06 PM  
Blogger Света Ермина said...

Ветроустойчивые роллеты/маркизы теперь можно заказать с прозрачной пленкой. Использование: для закрытия окон в летних кафе, ресторанах, а также верандах, беседках. Прозрачный ПВХ отличается высокой степенью прозрачности, видимость как через стекло. Прозрачные роллеты можно использовать круглогодично, а прозрачное окно можно сделать любого размера, сочетая акриловую ткань с ПВХ. Толщина пленки 0,4 мм. Вертикальные прозрачные маркизы/роллеты, сфера применения: беседки, окна, веранды, балконы.

5:33 AM  
Blogger Света Ермина said...

Оконные маркизы служат для защиты окон от солнечного света. Оконные навесы бывают выдвижные горизонтальные, вертикальные, коробовые и маркизы с падающим локтем, где угол наклона маркиза может быть от 0 до 170 градусов. Также для защиты помещения от нагревания используют тканевые ветроустойчивые роллеты.

2:37 AM  
Blogger Ulshat said...

Представляем топ 10 лучших маркиз для защиты от солнца, дождя, ветра и снега. Маркизы европейских производителей с лучшим соотношением цена/качество, современным дизайном и отличными характеристиками.

9:23 AM  
Anonymous маркизы цена said...

Горизонтальная маркиза, цена которой вас порадует, устойчива к нагрузкам и проста в управлении.

8:58 AM  
Anonymous горизонтальные маркизы киев said...

Выдвижные локтевые маркизы имеют очень эстетичный вид, прочную конструкцию и большой вылет локтей маркиз. Особенность и преимущество навеса в том, что в сложенном виде маркиза полностью спрятана в кассету и защищена от воздействия неблагоприятных погодных условий.

5:12 AM  
Anonymous маркизы цена Киев said...

Балконные маркизы служат для затенения окон, балконов и придомовых площадок. К балконным маркизам можно отнести маркизы с падающим локтем Italia, выдвижные локтевые и вертикальные маркизы.

4:30 AM  
Anonymous маркизы вертикальные said...

Вертикальные маркизы и тканевые ролеты являются одной из разновидностей маркиз. Их особенность в том, что они закрывают вертикальные проемы. Эти маркизы служат для защиты от солнца, ветра, дождя и снега, а также от посторонних глаз.

10:00 AM  
Anonymous Маркизы для беседки said...

Чтобы защитить беседку от солнца более всего подойдут ветроустойчивые тканевые ролеты/маркизы и вертикальные маркизы.
Тканевую ветроустойчивую роллету/маркизу можно использовать круглый год и в любую погоду. Её назначение: защита от ветра, солнца, дождя, снега и насекомых.

6:43 AM  
Anonymous Вертикальные прозрачные маркизы said...

Вертикальные прозрачные маркизы/роллеты, сфера применения: беседки, окна, веранды, балконы.

10:20 AM  
Anonymous маркизы для беседки киев said...

Ветроустойчивые тканевые ролеты - это оптимальное решение для защиты от непогоды. Область их использования достаточна широкая: они будут уместны в загородной беседке, веранде или уличном барбекю для защиты от ветра, дождя и снега, так как имеют ветроустойчивость.

8:38 AM  
Anonymous маркизы купить в киеве said...

Вертикальные маркизы и тканевые ролеты являются одной из разновидностей маркиз. Их особенность в том, что они закрывают вертикальные проемы. Эти маркизы служат для защиты от солнца, ветра, дождя и снега, а также от посторонних глаз.
Видео: маркизы для беседки (рефлексол - ветроустойчивые тканевые роллеты,) г. Киев, лето 2014 г.

6:17 AM  
Anonymous террасные маркизы фото said...

Террасная маркиза Latin.
Особенностью данной конструкции маркиз является ее устойчивость к порывам ветра и дождю. Если выдвижную маркизу необходимо складывать при ветре свыше 8 м/с, то террасные маркизы Latin выдерживают ветер до 22 м/с.

6:38 AM  
Anonymous маркизы балконные киев said...

Балконные маркизы Italia.
Балконные маркизы используются для затенения окон от прямого солнечного света. Устанавливаются на балконах, над окнами домов.
Особенность конструкции навеса состоит в падающем локте, благодаря которому маркиза может опускаться на 90 градусов и более. Конструкция маркиз возможна в кассетном исполнении.

4:34 AM  
Anonymous балконные маркизы купить киев said...

Балконные маркизы Italia.
Особенность конструкции навеса состоит в падающем локте, благодаря которому маркиза может опускаться на 90 градусов и более. Конструкция маркиз возможна в кассетном исполнении.

7:12 AM  
Anonymous маркизы цена киев said...

Представляем топ 10 лучших маркиз для защиты от солнца, дождя, ветра и снега. Маркизы европейских производителей с лучшим соотношением цена / качество, современным дизайном и отличными характеристиками.

7:37 AM  
Anonymous маркизы выдвижные цены киев said...

Выдвижные маркизы предназначены для защиты от солнца и легкого дождя. Навесы устанавливают на террасах, площадках ресторанов, летних кафе, баров и загородных коттеджей, а также над окнами домов. Вылет локтевых маркиз может быть от 1,5 метров до 5,1 метра, ширина одной маркизы до 12 метров.

8:52 AM  
Anonymous ветроустойчивые тканевые ролеты киев цена said...

Ветроустойчивые маркизы, роллеты или их ещё называют рефлексол/рефлексоли устанавливают на беседках, верандах, балконах для защиты от ветра, солнца, дождя и снега.

5:23 AM  
Anonymous Коробовые маркизы Киев said...

Коробовые маркизы это удачное сочетание защиты от солнца и прекрасного рекламоносителя. Этот вид маркиз применяется в основном над входными дверями магазинов, ресторанов или кафе, а также для затенения оконных проемов.

3:40 AM  
Anonymous маркизы балконные киев. said...

Балконные маркизы используются для затенения окон от прямого солнечного света. Устанавливаются на балконах, над окнами домов.
Особенность конструкции навеса состоит в падающем локте, благодаря которому маркиза может опускаться на 90 градусов и более. Конструкция маркиз возможна в кассетном исполнении.

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Anonymous коробовые маркизы said...

Коробовые маркизы — используются над входными дверями магазинов, кафе, ресторанов, а также просто как украшение. Это отличный способ рекламы своего предприятия. К достоинствам относится и тот факт, что маркиза не складывается в зимнее время.

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1:02 AM  
Anonymous Маркизы Киев said...

Выдвижные маркизы киев предназначены для защиты от солнца и легкого дождя.
Навесы устанавливают на террасах, площадках ресторанов, летних кафе,
баров и загородных коттеджей, а также над окнами домов.

7:56 AM  
Anonymous Маркизы на окна said...

Самая устойчивая маркиза от ветра и дождя. «Latin» напоминает стандартную перголу, с подвешенной тканью, отодвигаемой в сторону. Угол наклона для отвода воды всего 5°. Маркизы «Latin» лучший вариант для летних площадок, выдерживает сильные ветра до 26 м/с, что позволяет не складывать маркизу до конца сезона.

5:17 AM  
Anonymous Маркизы на окна said...

Самая устойчивая маркиза от ветра и дождя. «Latin» напоминает стандартную перголу, с подвешенной тканью, отодвигаемой в сторону. Угол наклона для отвода воды всего 5°. Маркизы «Latin» лучший вариант для летних площадок, выдерживает сильные ветра до 26 м/с, что позволяет не складывать маркизу до конца сезона.

5:18 AM  
Anonymous навесы от солнца купить киев said...

Стационарный быстровозводимый навес - это лучшее соотношение качество / цена. Это самый выгодный вариант построения навеса для различного назначения, с возможностью закрывать фронтальные и боковые проемы. Система (разборный навес) выполнена из алюминия, а в качестве накрытия используется маркизная, акриловая ткань Sattler. Дышащая, которая имеет грязе-водоотталкивающие свойства, а также защищает от ультрафиолетовых лучей.

8:42 AM  
Anonymous маркизы вертикальные прозрачные said...

Ритм и загруженность нашего времени заставляет современного человека ценить и выбирать вещи, которые бы отличались многофункциональностью. Нельзя сказать, что сегодня таких предметов достаточно много, но все же их можно встретить буквально на каждом шагу. Это – маркизы для защиты от солнца.

9:27 AM  
Anonymous Markizaofua said...

Маркизы балконные достаточно популярны в Киеве и Украине, доступная цена и хорошее качество привлекают любителей комфорта. Установленные над окнами дома навесы от солнца, придадут изысканный вид и стоимость маркиз окупится с лихвой за долгие годы службы.

12:19 PM  
Anonymous маркизы для летних площадок said...

Выдвижные локтевые маркизы для летних площадок RIVIERA.

Это одна из наиболее популярных моделей маркиз, покупаемых в Украине за счет хорошего соотношения цена / качество. Горизонтальная маркиза, цена которой вас порадует, устойчива к нагрузкам и проста в управлении. Ее можно использовать и в качестве двухсторонней маркизы навеса. Преимуществом является доступная цена маркизы, а также большой вылет при ширине до 12 метров.Навесы Riviera служат для защиты от солнца и легкого дождя уличных площадок ресторанов, летних кафе, отелей, а также для накрытия террас загородных коттеджей.

5:57 AM  
Anonymous навесы тенты маркизы said...

Стационарный быстровозводимый навес - это лучшее соотношение качество / цена. Это самый выгодный вариант построения навеса для различного назначения, с возможностью закрывать фронтальные и боковые проемы. Система (разборный навес) выполнена из алюминия, а в качестве накрытия используется маркизная, акриловая ткань Sattler.

12:31 PM  
Anonymous маркизы и навесы для кафе said...

Маркизы для кафе давно стали одним из атрибутов комфорта. Сегодня многие уличные рестораны или кафе уже украшает маркиза. Под тенью солнцезащитного навеса очень приятно и комфортно провести время на свежем воздухе, наслаждаясь чашечкой кофе или чая. А логотип, нанесенный на волан маркизы, послужит отличной рекламой заведения.

10:34 AM  
Anonymous маркизы для беседки киев said...

Особенность конструкции навеса состоит в падающем локте, благодаря которому маркиза может опускаться на 90 градусов и более. Конструкция маркиз возможна в кассетном исполнении.

Маркизы балконные достаточно популярны в Киеве и Украине, доступная цена и хорошее качество привлекают любителей комфорта. Установленные над окнами дома навесы от солнца, придадут изысканный вид и стоимость маркиз окупится с лихвой за долгие годы службы.

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